A Brilliant and Chaotic Imagination: A Conversation With Phil Wilson

Have you ever peered into a reflection and found the depths of your imagination staring back? That's where my guest, Phil, and I kick off our dialogue, wading through the chaos and creativity that churns in the mind like a Salvador Dali masterpiece caught in a rain puddle. We traverse the landscape of mental health, unearthing how the stillness of lockdown has amplified the need to declutter the mind, like one carefully salvages a precious watch from murky waters. Phil's candid revelations on the impact of such introspection on his life and career pull back the curtain on the often hidden battles within the vibrant world of creatives.

Transforming the lull of pandemic-induced pauses into a springboard for growth, I recount the unexpected joy discovered in learning and picking up new hobbies. There's an enchantment in the journey, not just the destination, whether it's in the skies aiming for a pilot license, or mastering magic tricks that once seemed like child's play. This exploration is a reminder of the resilience that blooms when life throws a curveball, and how embracing the climb can unearth a renewed passion for not just learning, but living.

Rounding off our conversation, the rollercoaster of emotions that comes with the territory of being a musician is laid bare. From the adrenaline of receiving a nod from a music legend to the grounding experiences in retail that provided an unlikely sanctuary during the tougher times. This episode doesn't just share tales of thrilling performances and the fortitude required to sustain them; it's a heartfelt harmony of anecdotes that resonate with anyone who's ever sought their melody amidst life's cacophony, and the community and routines that help keep the beat going. Join Phil and me on this melodic expedition through the highs and lows of a creative life.

Transcript

Matt Cooper: 0:01

Hey, I'm Matt. Welcome to my podcast, the Imagining a time to explore the imagination, creativity and mental health. All of the conversations I'm having form part of the research for my new book. I hope that you have the opportunity during this time to discover something new about yourself. Phil, my man, thank you so much for jumping on the old pod. You're welcome. It's a real privilege. I've been trying to pin you down since they dot. I know these ships have never met in the night, exactly yeah, and me and you. Well, you've known me longer than I've known you, in the sense that you've been around, probably at least surveying.

Phil Wilson: 0:41

Yeah, because I'm cousins with your mum.

Matt Cooper: 0:42

Yeah, surveying the area of periphery of my life.

Phil Wilson: 0:46

I saw you coming along.

Matt Cooper: 0:48

Oh, I saw it. Did you see me making an entry, though?

Phil Wilson: 0:51

No, no, I wasn't. I was moving to that information, all those views, nor do you want to be. As far as I'm aware, there's no video either.

Matt Cooper: 0:59

Yeah, exactly, we've all escaped. We've all escaped that traumatic thing. Now I've got a whole host of areas and things that it would be interesting to explore with you.

Phil Wilson: 1:10

How long have you gone?

Matt Cooper: 1:12

Well, as long as we need, and my friend, who I produce a podcast for, says we'll carry on talking until I get bored. So that's really my theory as well.

Phil Wilson: 1:21

We'll carry on talking. Matt Cooper makes Phil Wilson series one episode, one Exactly, yeah, exactly A whole separate thing.

Matt Cooper: 1:29

But the first thing that I would really love to pick up on is probably the best answer to one of the questions that I send out before every podcast, and I get every guest that comes on this podcast to fill out this form and ask them how do they define their imagination, or the imagination, or however you interpret that question, and you gave one of the best answers I think I've ever heard, which is you define your imagination as a Salvador Dali painting in a puddle. Yeah, what do you care to?

Phil Wilson: 2:00

elaborate. It's crazy, beyond crazy. There is so much noise going on in between my ears. Sometimes it's frustrating. I've had to find ways of dealing with it and it's just. It's just a mess. I will go from one thought to another quicker than clicking a finger. And when you when that I've never been asked that question before and I started to think about it and that is the only description I could come up with, the few words that I'm assuming that you needed.

Matt Cooper: 2:31

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 2:33

Otherwise there'd have been a whole novel there of what's going on, and it is like that I've got music, I've got hobbies, I've got family, I've got mental health, I've got physical health, I've got age, because I'm cracking towards 65, which is still young, really, but it's still only five years from 70.

Matt Cooper: 2:55

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 2:57

There's all this going on in my head and all I could. That's exactly how I could describe it, as Salvador Dali's paintings are bonkers.

Matt Cooper: 3:05

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 3:07

I mean full stop, but then you put one in a puddle and that's that's. That's how you're going to get my whole mishmash. It's a mishmash of stuff, and I've only recently started to sort it all out. And it's been, it's been quite uncovering really of stuff that's going on there and it's been. It's an interesting journey, yeah, I'm sure, which I'm sure we might, which we might take part in.

Matt Cooper: 3:32

So I'm interested actually because I think that one of the reasons I liked the answer so much is because it resonated so deeply with my own sense of what goes on between my ears in the, in the way that actually there is this chaoticness to the imagination that I have, to my mind, to everything that's going on inside of me. For you it's hard because I don't want to place this on on that definition, but for me sometimes it that's quite a painful experience to have to have an imagination like that. Does that resonate with you?

Phil Wilson: 4:10

Absolutely it does. And where I am at the moment you know if I don't know the name of the painting, but one of the most famous ones is is that watch hanging over a branch. You know well, you imagine that brand watch in a puddle. I've picked that watch up and I'm trying to clean it off.

Matt Cooper: 4:26

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 4:27

And you're getting one, one element of that painting at a time.

Matt Cooper: 4:31

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 4:32

Out of the puddle, cleaning it up, trying to sort it out and then, once that sorted out, put it to one side and then perhaps deal with something else.

Matt Cooper: 4:41

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 4:42

Within that puddle rather than looking at the whole thing. If you look at the whole thing as as one collective, you will stay in bed.

Matt Cooper: 4:49

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 4:50

Because I know from experience.

Matt Cooper: 4:52

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 4:53

Especially during lockdown, when all my work stopped being being a musician. I'm not saying I had the worst time People had a lot worse times than me but from my own personal experience, I stayed in bed. Yeah, I couldn't cope with the messy in that puddle.

Matt Cooper: 5:08

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 5:10

So that's yeah they. I think it works fine. There's loads to do. Yeah, I managed to get the watch out, yeah.

Matt Cooper: 5:16

I'm still cleaning it up. Yeah, they're still a long way to go. So what is the watch that you're actively cleaning at the moment? Mental health Right.

Phil Wilson: 5:25

So that's not straight or straighter or understood, or I know the differences it's causing. I think that will affect everything else, both my personal life, the people close to me. Sarah and friends and family and it's and it's, and it's really, really, really fresh, I mean I'd going on to mental health, if we can dive straight into there?

Matt Cooper: 5:52

Yeah, for sure, please.

Phil Wilson: 5:54

I'm a fan of podcasts. That's one of the reasons I'm here, anyway.

Matt Cooper: 5:57

I listened to quite a few.

Phil Wilson: 5:59

A couple of weeks ago I was listening to a podcast that's put out by LBC, a gentleman called James O'Brien Right, he's a, he's a presenter on LBC and he's got a podcast called Full Disclosure and he interviewed Chris Packham the naturalist. Is that the right word Naturalist, natureist? One of them takes their clothes off, one of them doesn't. I'm assuming that he's the one that doesn't take his clothes off, okay, and I like Chris Packham. I met him at a show. He's a big punk fan, yeah, which I found quite surprising. He came to a show that I was on I'm not in a punk band, I'm sure we'll cover that in a moment In a moment and we had a chat and he signed a book for Sarah and he was lovely.

Phil Wilson: 6:42

So I listened to the podcast and Chris Packham has. He's been diagnosed with ADHD and I've already been diagnosed with depression and anxiety. I'm on medication for it. I'm quite happy to talk about it. It's not a problem at all. So I listened to this podcast and James O'Brien is fantastic at getting the best out of people. Really, really, really clever how he does it. And Chris Packham was saying these things and I was thinking, yeah, that's me, oh, that's me, I've done that.

Matt Cooper: 7:16

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 7:17

Yeah, that's me as well, and I was like thinking this actually explains an awful lot.

Matt Cooper: 7:22

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 7:22

I thought ADHD was something that naughty children had and ADHD was shorthand for naughty. It's not. I understand it greater now and I apologize for my initial thoughts of years and years ago. So I started to look into it a little bit and I went on to if I'm going to research something, especially medical. I'll always go onto a recognized website. I won't ask Auntie Mabel on a. Facebook page, Because you get all yeah, yeah, that's okay, darling, eat carrots.

Matt Cooper: 7:57

The cure to all ADHD. You'll be absolutely fine.

Phil Wilson: 8:00

So I found the ADHD charity in the UK for adults and it's a recognized charity, it's got a charity number and it's got a big following and they've also got a podcast which I tuned into. Adolescent listens are number one and it talked about the diagnosis.

Phil Wilson: 8:18

And they said that on the website they've got a form which you can download and fill in, which I did, and my score was incredibly high and normally when you're doing forms you get a high score. That's generally a plus, but in this I don't think it was a plus. As far as knowing, I might have an issue that hadn't yet been diagnosed.

Phil Wilson: 8:41

But I thought of it as a plus thinking. It explains a lot. Perhaps we can start dealing with that. But the first thing they said, once you've done this, if you get you know so much or you're still worried book an appointment with your GP. I did that. I booked one with the GP. This is how fresh it is. I saw him on Tuesday and we're now on Friday and he was going to give me a form to fill in. But the form that the charities supplied was the same one that NHS use and he looked at this and it was sort of oh, okay, you referred, so I'm just waiting for a referral letter.

Phil Wilson: 9:21

The downside on that is I've heard that it can be up to four years. Well, no, we'll be nearly 70. So I'll be looking into that if there are ways I'm sure there's ways of getting a diagnosis from another county another. National Health Service department not department, but what do they call them? The various hospitals around?

Matt Cooper: 9:44

the country has got a name.

Phil Wilson: 9:46

A trust from another trust to try and speed that along. If not, I've been working on my life. I'm not rich by any special imagination, but I think it'll be worth spending out on a private time, yeah, to figure it out Just to get the answer sooner.

Phil Wilson: 10:01

then I can start working on it. I've already started. I've got a journal next to me. Again, I'm a big user of social media. I went onto YouTube, searched a couple of ADHD platforms on there and looked at the ones with the highest reviews, the highest counts, highest everything, and started to watch them. A lot of them are female-based, which isn't a problem at all, but there's nothing specifically for men. So I had a really good look around. Basically, I found one. A lot of traits and what's going on are the same, but menopause is different.

Phil Wilson: 10:43

It would not exist in there and we haven't got the same issues they have. So it's not that I'm not interested in the females I certainly am but I wanted to go through any focus there? Because I'm selfish. I want to deal with me which I found this podcast. One of the things I said is to journal it. Set yourself not target, not goals, but ambitions and things like that, and I write everything down and one of the issues I've got is Clutter.

Phil Wilson: 11:18

I'm terrible. I won't let Sarah sort my Clutter out, because it's my Clutter and she's got enough to do looking after me as a musician and her own job without dealing with my Clutter. So I've made a list of things I want to do, but then that brings it down to one thing at a time, not the whole picture in a puddle. Let's deal with a watch first, and that's how I'm dealing with it.

Matt Cooper: 11:46

That's really wonderful to hear, actually, because I think that there's you're right, ADHD does get a bad rep, or has had a very bad rep for the last 20, 30 years, maybe even longer, in the sense that it's identified as the naughty kid trait. It's really interesting that in your situation and I'm sure there's plenty of situations around where you've reached, like school- is way behind you and, in a sense, a formal diagnosis is not about you being able to operate through the schooling system.

Matt Cooper: 12:20

It's more about you learning about yourself in order to better manage yourself. Do you see, looking back, because your career and your working life has been again this kind of mishmash of wonderful, crazy, beautiful moments. You've played in all kinds of different bands and you've even been COVID. You know you went from working at a pet store and then you're back doing the band thing and then you've done stuff in the business world. You've run music workshops. You've touched the mental health thing you speak a lot into because of through Sarah, the cancer community. There's just there's a whole plethora of things. I'm assuming that one of the positives that maybe you've drawn out of the ADHD traits that you might be reconciling with yourself now is that you have been able to speak in so many different things. Would you say that's one of the best positive traits of the ADHD?

Phil Wilson: 13:27

Yeah, because I will give if I hit on a subject I'm in.

Matt Cooper: 13:32

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 13:33

And it's in. I mean, I've got loads of examples of it down here. I mean, for instance, when COVID hit theatres closed, arenas closed.

Matt Cooper: 13:46

Pre-COVID.

Phil Wilson: 13:46

What were you doing in relation to so you were actively, I was doing 130 shows a year in theatres and arenas playing percussion for some shows, playing drums for other shows and it just stopped Done, stopped, gone and, like a lot of people, it affected me and I hid away in bed. I just absolutely hid away in bed. There's nothing I could do. I didn't want to get up, didn't want to face the world, didn't want to face jobs, didn't want to face washing up, didn't want to face anything. Sarah, unbelievably I mean I would have left me, I would have been gone. She's unbelievable and I started to watch short videos on YouTube. Now, youtube is a great platform for finding out stuff. It's also a great platform for finding out nonsense, and the first thing I got into was shoe cleaning.

Phil Wilson: 14:46

I mean, that's, that's random, I mean if I said you name me 100 things I got into during COVID shoe cleaning. But not just interested in it, I started buying not just polish, but the best gels, the best waxes, the best cloths, spent 25 quid on a brush, I mean, and I brought back to life one pair of shoes and packed it all away. Then I got on to something else. You know we've got airfix models. I bought an airfix bit file, which is what about seven or eight quid? Spent million nearly 90 pounds on paints, brushes, glues, sandpaper tools workstation.

Phil Wilson: 15:26

Yeah made one model Right well now what should we do?

Matt Cooper: 15:28

We're done yeah, we're done from that. I loved it and, as someone that relates to it in a lot of ways, loved it. Yeah, you know, it's not the absence of lack of loving it that you then move on. It's just kind of like that was great. I enjoyed the process of learning and trying something different, and it's been beautiful.

Phil Wilson: 15:47

But I mean the process of you said the process of learning just reminded me of what must be 30, 40 years ago, when I was in 1979, I qualified as a private pilot. I got a pilot license, but I enjoyed the learning.

Matt Cooper: 16:06

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 16:06

So I qualified as a pilot. They said congratulations, you've qualified. I'm not twiddling with thumbs.

Matt Cooper: 16:12

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 16:13

It's like okay, now what do I do?

Matt Cooper: 16:14

Yeah done.

Phil Wilson: 16:15

now we can go for a fly over Leeds Castle I'll be deal. Done that 20 times. Or you can't go to Tarah Bridge now because on the city airports open and you can't get anywhere near there. Oh, you couldn't share the cost with people because that was taxing when I was doing it. That was illegal to follow people and share the cost. So I thought, well, I'll do some more learning. So I got a night rating. Then I got a basic instrument rating and no, known as an RMC rating.

Matt Cooper: 16:44

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 16:45

And when they finished okay, I've got an RMC rating, which means I'm going to fly in bad weather. What don't I want to do is fly in bad weather.

Matt Cooper: 16:51

That was a waste of time, but actually so in, and we'll return back to what what you were saying in a second. But whenever I've spoken to my dad about trying to piece together what I was like as a child, in the hope that I might learn something about me now, and he pointed out something that seems relatively obvious to me now, but he basically said you've always been more interested in learning new things than the actual thing that you're learning in a sense.

Matt Cooper: 17:19

So he was like you like the mountain to climb, you appreciate the view and then you're like, oh, look, there's another mountain. And so when I look now at my life and I go, you know, I'm writing a book, I make films, I design websites, speak on stages, run a podcast, I have a marketing job and there's all of these things, all of these different skills, I guess in some way people might say well, they're quite closely related. So maybe I do have a niche within what I enjoy learning. But I've always enjoyed the process of figuring out how to do something, starting from zero and going. I have no idea how to do this and I'm right at the bottom of the mountain, but boy would I love to be at the top.

Matt Cooper: 18:01

I've always appreciated that much more than when I've been at the top of the mountain and gone. Well, I know how to do that. Now, done that, move on next. I'm a bit bored of that. Now let's try something else. And inevitably it's useful, because when it then comes around four years later and they're like you know, what would be really useful to know how to do right now would be you know, know how to take photos? And then you're like oh, I climbed that mountain four years ago, I could probably do that. So that process of learning is something that's been profoundly important to me, in the sense that I've actually enjoyed the learning more than the doing.

Phil Wilson: 18:32

I'll give a really simple example of how learning could come and go so quickly. On a holiday last year I met a magician and I went to a workshop and he showed me this trick. Right, it's hysterical, but it amazed me. It was a little car trick and once he showed me it, I was amazed by it. You were hurt and I can do that trick. But I won't show anyone because because I know how it's done.

Phil Wilson: 19:05

I think they know how it's done, yeah yeah, so learning how that trick works has ruined that trick for me because I won't even show anybody yeah.

Matt Cooper: 19:12

So you just start. It was a kind of like the mystery's gone, that's it, move on, and now I'll move on. Yeah, and maybe that's it. It's the pull of the mystery, the curiousness, and I think that is one of the more positive traits of someone that would identify with ADHD or has been. I don't know if diagnosed is the right word for ADHD, but it might be, it might be.

Phil Wilson: 19:32

Yeah, I think that's what I refer to as a diagnosis.

Matt Cooper: 19:36

One of the obvious positive traits is kind of an insatiable curiosity of everything, and once something kind of sparks, it's like go, and obviously there's dangers within that as well, because you're like, oh, hold on a sec, I was meant to concentrate on this really important thing.

Phil Wilson: 19:53

That's really important and it's maybe not a good idea to kind of just follow that over there.

Matt Cooper: 19:59

Yeah, and that sort of comes at a cost, but the beauty of it. So actually this will speak into it. I'm writing a chapter about attention in the book and I wrote this story about these tiny people.

Phil Wilson: 20:13

I can't wait to hear some of your stories you'll be talking about.

Matt Cooper: 20:17

And there's these tiny people and they discovered this tea that they love.

Matt Cooper: 20:25

It's this type of tea and it's made of all of these different, really strange ingredients and you have to boil it at exactly the right temperature, something between I can't remember the exact words that I wrote, but kind of between the temperature of sun on a rock and lightning hitting the ground. It's a very precise temperature which you have to do it, otherwise it tastes grainy instead of smooth and there's always very complicated thing to do. But they've only ever been able to make it once, because they don't remember how to make it, because they weren't paying enough attention to the process and by the time they had finished with doing it, they were moving on to the next thing. So they were never paying enough attention in the moment because they were so curious about the next thing. But they fall in in love with the tea and they're like oh, actually that's the thing that we do really love when the dust settles and we're when COVID comes and we're rendered like pretty unable and we're knocked down and we're like you know what?

Matt Cooper: 21:21

I really just love is one of them cups of tea. They've forgotten because their attention, their low tension had got the better of them. And I guess, like one of the big things to speak into ADHD is the learning, how to pay attention and build a consistency to some things in your life so that you can repeat them and they become positive. Habitual practices in your life can be really grounding when you need it. What for you, would you say, are them habitual practices, them rhythms that you work really hard to try and stick with, or you might be in that discovery process now.

Phil Wilson: 22:03

I'm in a discovery process. I mean when I'm working, everything is precise. I've got lists on top of lists of light cases and everything. One of the hobbies I fell onto a year ago and I've been there a year as a model railways and that's really leveled out. I think that's part of polishing off the watch.

Matt Cooper: 22:25

Right.

Phil Wilson: 22:26

Really, I've sort of like trains for a while. You know, yes, I'm going to be a 17 year old in this garden shed.

Matt Cooper: 22:36

You're painting a picture of it. I mean, when I was growing up I was like uncle feels rock star, and now he's playing with trains.

Phil Wilson: 22:43

Rod Stewart's got a train set, so I'm in good company and I started going to a model railway club in Chatham at Chatham Dockyard under the Roperie. I've been going a year now and it is fantastic. The main reason is when you go in there and you close the door behind you, you shut the big bad world outside and you're speaking to like minded people. I do some modeling in there, do some painting in there. I'm building a model railway set in a guitar case which we've now touched on why, like I think, that's wrong.

Phil Wilson: 23:18

Again, it's auto-dimensional health, and you think about one thing while you're there. And it's beautiful Because there's a library. You can sit in the library with other gentlemen and ladies from the age of 18 up, and it does not stop, and you might not even touch a train all night, but you go out there relaxed and fulfilled because you've had nice conversation, you met nice people, you've had a bit of a giggle, you watch people. I mean, the club circuit is huge. It's massive, it's beautiful place. It's like I have to come down one day.

Matt Cooper: 23:55

I'll show you yeah.

Phil Wilson: 24:00

And I've gone every single Tuesday in a year, apart from the ones that I've been on holiday or working away, and that's the first thing I've done in years. There's a regular thing like that.

Matt Cooper: 24:10

I would start something, give it up.

Phil Wilson: 24:12

I took up, I started playing guitar a few years ago. I was going to an open mic night. Someone started videoing me and asked them very nicely, can you not video? Because this is a little pub. I'm only doing this open mic for 10 people in this pub.

Matt Cooper: 24:27

And the reply was well, I'm allowed to.

Phil Wilson: 24:29

It wasn't a case of being allowed to. I'd rather you didn't, and I put the guitar away, and that was what 10 years ago and only got out last week. I'm not allowed last month because I had gone to a guitar club in our way.

Phil Wilson: 24:44

So wow, but that thing just took me off that quickly and I think that's one of the traits. I'll get into something. I've described it in the past with Sarah as having a very, very long plank of wood with the finest of grooves down the road, a lot of grooves down the middle and unrolling a marble down that groove.

Phil Wilson: 25:06

If that plank of wood gets the slightest tap, the ball's gone. And that's me. I'm gone. I was having anger issues, self-harming, 10 years ago and we've got over that. You deal with things as they come along in your own way. My way was keeping my nail short, because that was my tool of choice. I would scratch myself horrendously, I'd be in a rattle pickle, but tiny things would set me off. So I had the treatment for that and that's now on the mend. It's great. But I once described it as if I was going on a motorway and I saw a multiple car accident. It was a coach for the school children. I would get out of the car, I would call the police, I would stop traffic, I would help, I would administer first aid, I would help out. If I broke a pencil when I was doing the drawing, all hell would break loose. And I have launched a microwave in the past over something really silly like a drop to teaspoon or something. But that hasn't happened for quite so many years and that's thanks to.

Phil Wilson: 26:12

Sarah and dragging me along kicking and screaming for treatment and treatment. Mental health treatment, as I'm sure you know, is hard to come by. And that was one of the biggest frustrations was you'd wait three or four months between consultations and then the council would change and you've got to go to the story again. And one of them was you know what sort of things frustrates you Filling in forms drive me insane, especially on a weekly basis. Because if I miss one form.

Phil Wilson: 26:38

I can't do the rest because I missed one and they said oh OK, can you fill this form in to explain that? No, I referred the Honourable Lady to the answer. I gave a few moments ago.

Matt Cooper: 26:49

It doesn't work.

Phil Wilson: 26:51

So you're fighting everything?

Matt Cooper: 26:53

Yeah, it seems to me what's really interesting and it's a theme that I think comes up time and time again and there are two things that you've pointed out that have been really positive and, ultimately, some of the most helpful for you. One is relationships and two is small meditative practices. That kind of ground you and me and you both can reconcile with having wives that are an island in a stormy ocean.

Phil Wilson: 27:28

Absolutely.

Matt Cooper: 27:29

That's how I describe Jess. For me is that there is a sense of Jess is character. I don't want to put undue pressure on my wife. I don't expect her to be the anchor to my soul all day, every day, forever, because that's an unfair burden, but she will and you'll be there for her too.

Matt Cooper: 27:48

Yeah, exactly, but she definitely does her gift. Her greatest of gifts to me and I'm forever indebted in a way to that is this sense of stillness amongst an ocean, and I guess me and you are indebted in that way where we're eternally lucky that we have I mean, I'm going to be really honest with myself stumbled upon someone that's so awesome. I don't quite know if I deserve her or whatever, but certainly there is a deliberateness on my behalf and your behalf of curating relationships. It takes, it takes time in order to go. Well, I can be all of these creative things, I can be the rock star, I can go and do the interesting stuff.

Phil Wilson: 28:36

I hit stuff. Yeah, it's that.

Matt Cooper: 28:38

Well, I'm going to call you a rock star. Okay, a rock star, I can do all of them things, but unless I really curate a relationship with an individual in our situations our spouses or family, or a friend or whoever is, the whole thing goes to put it, do you agree?

Phil Wilson: 28:55

Yeah, I mean I wouldn't be a professional musician without Sarah it was. It was because I never had any confidence at all. I didn't think I was good enough, didn't have talent, you know, was bullied at school, at a stammer at school, bullied at school or was spoken down to. So I didn't have that self-belief. But she gave that to me and that gave me the courage to go for my first theatre tour and I got it straight away. Wow, I thought, damn yeah.

Matt Cooper: 29:32

I was at home 30 years ago 40 years ago.

Phil Wilson: 29:35

So I had the ability to play at that level. But then once you're at that level you got to keep getting better. You know you're only as good as your last note Because I like that kind of pressure musically. I like that kind of pressure. But I've had moments of negativity when I've been playing. Once I was at a show in Glasgow and I nearly pushed my whole rig over and it wasn't for the lighting engineer wrapping his arms around being pulling me off the stage during the soundcheck, it would have been a whole different matter.

Phil Wilson: 30:06

So you can, you can flip anytime. Yeah, you know, people didn't. People don't understand. I'm sure people are getting better now because more people, especially well-known people, are coming out explaining about their mental health Stephen Fry stuff.

Matt Cooper: 30:23

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 30:25

And I mean damn good company.

Matt Cooper: 30:28

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 30:29

People like that, you know, bring it on. But I've come off stage after playing to 3,000 people sat in the corner and cried. I don't know why.

Matt Cooper: 30:40

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 30:41

Just had the most phenomenal night. You know, the thing that started the repair for my initial for anxiety, anger and all that kind of stuff was talking to people not hiding it, and it came to like one that I was on tour and I was, we were doing a gig away from the normal tour, so the tour bus and all the equipment had gone to somewhere else.

Matt Cooper: 31:06

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 31:07

We were doing this show in the Lancaster or Morecombe some somewhere up north. We were given a hire gear to put in. Now I've got a certain requirement.

Matt Cooper: 31:15

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 31:16

You know I won't refuse to play if it comes below that. Yeah, but you want things to be certain, and this children's drum kit had been put in with broken heads and broken cymbals.

Phil Wilson: 31:25

Yeah, that's dust doesn't mean, and I was starting and it was a Sunday and I was starting to repair it and I was getting more and more frustrated. And the tour manager, our agent, was a lady called Abby Carter and I was referred to as Carter. The all of I was on my hands and knees buying this bass drum, trying to get the pedal to work, and a cup of tea appeared under my nose. He was a tour manager and he said going to a dark room, have this. Carter thinks you're about to kill somebody.

Phil Wilson: 32:00

But if I hadn't spoken to somebody, else but I took Abby to one side, probably weeks and weeks before, probably even months before that. So just keep they, keep people, keep friends real friends will keep an eye on you. And she did, and she could probably see my heckles getting up. And we ended up finding a shopkeeper local to the town and he opened up his shop and they got a drum kit out for me.

Matt Cooper: 32:23

Yeah.

Matt Cooper: 32:25

But they're saying so beautiful the gift of saying pause.

Phil Wilson: 32:29

Stop go away, yeah, in a dark room but it's so underestimated. You have to talk to people, you have to let people know and people have. If anybody says, oh, you know, it's all in the mind, then that's the wrong person to speak to.

Matt Cooper: 32:41

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 32:42

Yeah, go and speak to somebody else.

Matt Cooper: 32:44

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 32:46

Because you do, you'd need, you'd definitely need that support, you know, and I've again. Thanks Sarah. Going back to the lockdown thing, my days started at four o'clock in the afternoon. I was in bed till four. Sarah got me into a routine of going down to watch tipping points at four o'clock. Then I think it was a chase, and then after that we'd watch Richmond Ottomans House of Games just game shows.

Matt Cooper: 33:15

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 33:16

And then after the last game she had about half past six. I'd be watching the clock for 10 o'clock, so I'm going back to bed again, but at least she started a routine.

Matt Cooper: 33:22

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 33:23

And then one day she came up to me and it was a Thursday and she said that pets at home were looking for someone for a, I think, a 10 or 12 week contract, because they were a vital business.

Matt Cooper: 33:33

So they were open during COVID.

Phil Wilson: 33:36

She said you used to do retail, why don't you have a go for it? I said I'm not gonna want me. You know, I think in any place I'd get a job or something like being Q, you know, in a bib and brace and you know, yes, the glue is over there, madam, you know, but I filled in the form online.

Phil Wilson: 33:51

They phoned me up it's the very same day into the branch on the Friday for the interview. Monday morning started work and having that regular thing to get up and go for is brilliant, which I'm still struggling to do for my own stuff at home, hence the journal. But one of the first things I remember was when I was working at Pets at home apart from how brilliant they are with animals and how great the staff are to animals I was on my hands and knees cleaning up dog mess. It might have been a Labrador it was a big dog.

Matt Cooper: 34:24

It was a big dog.

Phil Wilson: 34:25

Yeah, it was a big dog it was probably not very old dog on the way home from the day or something, and I just started giggling to myself thinking you know, this time last year I was playing the O2. I'm wiping up this. I thought, oh well, but you know, I absolutely ended up spending just over six months there. I wanted me to stay on. So, I made an impact.

Phil Wilson: 34:45

I was passing my previous retail training onto the younger staff in there and all that kind of helping out where I could, but I didn't want to start as a general member of staff. If I was gonna work for Pets at home full time, I would have gone on a management acceleration course because I think I've got the ability. But you know finance wasn't there.

Matt Cooper: 35:08

And.

Phil Wilson: 35:09

I understand their reasoning. They have their plan and their routines and schemes and the money was a lot worse than hitting stuff. So when the opportunity came to hit stuff I left and then the first five gigs were canceled because the brass section got COVID. I've had another week in the pet shop cuddling rabbits.

Phil Wilson: 35:30

You know, so it's just how it goes, but things are leavening out a lot better now, yeah, especially in the last week, since I know that actually the reason I'm doing this is there's an ADHD thing there and it explains an awful lot.

Matt Cooper: 35:45

Yeah, and that's. There's something in finding comfort in someone saying you're not alone, and I guess that's what diagnosis does. It says, don't worry, we've seen this before. There's other people, it's like that post office candle that's going around.

Phil Wilson: 36:03

Everyone was told they were on their own. Yeah, yeah, and nobody else. And talking to people, I think is the best thing to do and close friends and family. You can have a really good chat with them.

Matt Cooper: 36:17

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 36:18

You know, even a laugh at my own expense. I'm the first one to laugh at my own expense Because it breaks the ice, because sometimes people are afraid to mention. You know some sort of talking to a friend of mine last night and his wife had a very upsetting mental period and she had to go to hospital for three months and she's still in recovery and you know slow movie, and he was saying that she was staying in bed till midday and we went out together to on the way home. I said you know, you said your wife's staying in bed till midday and you said she's a lightweight, yeah, so instantly put a humor aside, and he would be, laughter, you know because he get, I get where she's at.

Matt Cooper: 37:03

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 37:04

And we share, share information. It's not top Trump's share information and make it a talkable subject, if that's the right word. Yeah, negotiable, not negotiable. Yeah, talkable subject, something you can freely talk about with friends, relatives and everyone. And people don't say, oh, watch that film, lucky the bit bonkers. They won't say that anymore Because people know that it's quite a serious. Yeah condition to be in. I've never missed a gig because of it. I've been on. I have played, not in a very good state.

Matt Cooper: 37:37

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 37:39

And I've let people know. You know we class it as baboons, sarah and I. I said you may not remember because of your age, but I'm sure you've heard of a boxer called Frank Bruno. Yes, he'd either. He'd just won a tournament it might have been the European Championship and the boxing commentator was always a guy called Harry Carpenter. I believe. And he said to Frank Bruno, how are you feeling, Frank? And he said Harry, I'm feeling like Tim baboons, Right. So for me, Tim baboons is as high as you can get.

Matt Cooper: 38:11

OK.

Phil Wilson: 38:11

So Sarah will always say to me how many baboons you want today.

Matt Cooper: 38:14

Right, so 10 is the best. 10 is you're feeling great, I can't get to Tim baboons. But if you've got no baboons I get to wait in nine no baboons.

Phil Wilson: 38:22

I stay in bed.

Matt Cooper: 38:23

OK, no, three or five is about right.

Phil Wilson: 38:25

Tim baboons, I get what I call a happy hangover.

Matt Cooper: 38:28

OK, and you know that, as a crash, the following day Sarah calls it bouncing on a tambourine, on a trampoline and hissing your head on the ceiling.

Matt Cooper: 38:36

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 38:36

If you get too many baboons, you'll bet you go crazy.

Matt Cooper: 38:38

OK.

Phil Wilson: 38:38

And the next day you get a happy hangover.

Matt Cooper: 38:40

So it's equally unregulated and I'm as flat as a pancake, yeah. So we just try keeping our no baboons, because I guess one of the structural problems of being a professional musician or operating in any career where there is very high reward moments For instance, I had done a lot you would class as the most in VertiCom. In VertiCom as moment, the best, most brilliant moment in the eyes of the world, moment of playing music.

Phil Wilson: 39:13

For me, I've got one.

Matt Cooper: 39:14

What is it?

Phil Wilson: 39:15

It was last September. I'm currently touring with a band called T-Rex-Essie. They're a T-Rex tribute show. I use the word tribute very, very loosely. That's a brilliant tribute band. Yeah, I really believe that T-Rex should take it to the next level.

Matt Cooper: 39:32

Right.

Phil Wilson: 39:33

They are phenomenal. They did a show. We did a show last September at the Shepherd Bush Empire.

Matt Cooper: 39:40

Right.

Phil Wilson: 39:41

It was a Mark Bowlin anniversary concert. Tony Visconti was the producer for Mark Bowlin T-Rex. He came over to conduct a string section on that show. Holly Johnson was on the gig singing a couple of T-Rex songs. Mark Holman was on the gig singing a couple of T-Rex songs.

Matt Cooper: 39:59

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 40:02

And I was. I had discussed it a bit in these names down there. There was quite a few other people on this show and it was sold out and it was phenomenal. And I got a smile on the thumbs up from Tony Visconti at the end of the show and I hope if the world had finished then I wouldn't have known.

Matt Cooper: 40:23

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 40:23

You know it was one of the best concerts I've seen.

Matt Cooper: 40:28

And I was part of it.

Phil Wilson: 40:29

Yeah, and it was just even now. I'm getting shivers Just thinking about it.

Matt Cooper: 40:33

I would say they're on the back of my neck standing up, but I haven't got any.

Matt Cooper: 40:35

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 40:36

But it was just out of this world.

Matt Cooper: 40:38

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 40:40

That feeling of you know if Visconti, who produced the songs in the first place, was happy with my playing.

Matt Cooper: 40:46

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 40:47

It was good.

Matt Cooper: 40:48

Because and the reason I draw attention to it and thank you for explaining what it was for you is that in careers like that, you can have a day like that and then the following day.

Phil Wilson: 40:59

I could all go belly up yeah.

Matt Cooper: 41:01

And I guess, inherently, that's one of the challenges of an overtly creative or not overtly creative and overtly I don't know what you would call it.

Phil Wilson: 41:13

I'll give you a belly up. Shall I, yeah, give you a belly up? I was offered, I was asked, to go and play drums on a show. I won't give the name of the, the act, that'll be unfair. But I had six, eight weeks notice. I sent me some emails with the tracks recorded from a live show that they did. I've charted it out, wrote the parts out, practiced it, practiced it, learned it, practiced it, practiced it, learned it. You know yeah.

Phil Wilson: 41:43

I'm happy with this. This is kind of a cracker. In the soundcheck the guy running the band said OK, we'll do so, and so a track. So we started it. He started the guitar and I was waiting for the moment to case it. Why haven't you started? I said well, drums don't come in for eight bars. Yes, they do. Well, not on the track that you sent me. Well, who sent you the wrong track then?

Matt Cooper: 42:08

Well, I don't know.

Phil Wilson: 42:09

Someone did and that resulted in a massive row In the soundcheck and my head just fell apart.

Phil Wilson: 42:17

Absolutely. I could not play. I got through the gig in a bang on a standing ovation, but I did not play as well as I was. I didn't go out for tea afterwards after the soundcheck Because I felt I had to learn everything over again from scratch. My confidence had been blown and I think it's the worst you could have ever played. I didn't even get paid for it. I didn't. I didn't invoice for it, right. But the one thing about the massive learning from that is, if you get a live version that they've done, I always check with the original recording.

Matt Cooper: 42:54

Right.

Phil Wilson: 42:55

And if there's a difference I will contact.

Matt Cooper: 42:57

You ask yeah, you make the call.

Phil Wilson: 42:58

They make the call. I mean, I did that with the Stevie Wonder tribute show, which was a tour brass section, phenomenal band. I mean off the scale players and I got all the parts for the percussion and there's like eight staves, meaning I needed eight hands to play some of that. So well, no, I'm good, but there are limits.

Phil Wilson: 43:20

So I contacted the musical director and he says well, I don't know, speak to the person who charted it. So he gave me her number. I phoned her up and said these Stevie Wonder parts for this tour, where did you get the charts from? She said I recorded it's from the Stevie Wonder live in London DVD. Ok, so I watched it and there's two percussionists and the brass section to play in percussion when they can, and so the backing vocalist. She wrote everything down Right.

Phil Wilson: 43:50

So I thought, well, I'm not going to be able to do this?

Matt Cooper: 43:52

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah, we'd need to know the percussionist. So I phoned the MD out and I said this is the situation. Yeah, there's too many parts, x, y, z you know, there's two percussionists.

Phil Wilson: 44:00

This is going on, that's going on. Do you trust me to produce a hybrid?

Matt Cooper: 44:05

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 44:05

The most dominant parts on the singles and album tracks come out and I hold back the live stuff for reserve or if there's some live stuff that's more dominant.

Matt Cooper: 44:18

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 44:19

Than the recorded, I'll do the most dominant. And he said, yeah, so I'd free Ryan. I still charted out and had it exactly every night. It was the same.

Matt Cooper: 44:26

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 44:28

But I learned that from that row.

Matt Cooper: 44:31

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 44:32

Because I would have had the foot pedals everywhere trying to play all these eight parts.

Matt Cooper: 44:36

Yeah, exactly yeah. It's like quick In ballet dancing around foot pedals Push it down, push it down.

Phil Wilson: 44:40

You know, shakers strapped to me head and stuff. But just I learned it, you know. But it's a shame it come from such a massive low.

Matt Cooper: 44:49

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 44:49

But it's you know. So any musician listening to this if you get something and you see a discrepancy between what they've sent you and the original recording, have that conversation.

Matt Cooper: 44:59

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 45:00

It will save a row. It will save a row. It will save a night's wages. Yeah, exactly yeah, it will save some.

Matt Cooper: 45:06

Now I wonder whether you could I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to cover what do you feel is the important wisdom that you would offer up, as it would be a big question to say over your life. What is the wisdom that you would wish to leave? Because I don't want to intinuate that you're about to die, but the question, I guess, is you know what's been the major learning for you of this journey that you've been on?

Phil Wilson: 45:45

That is. It's always the most recent thing. Don't be afraid to talk to people. Have that conversation and that's across everything, both professionally, you know. Will this tune be right? Is it not the same as the original? Have that conversation. I'm feeling a bit grotty in the head. I'm not feeling very well. What's causing it? Can I have a conversation with somebody? Have they noticed anything?

Matt Cooper: 46:05

in my behavior.

Phil Wilson: 46:06

You know, have that conversation. Good friends will help you. Good friends will put you in the right direction and, more importantly, they will stand by you. They will give you that hug when you need it. You know, I'm feeling close to tears now Because this has been like a counselling session.

Phil Wilson: 46:25

You know some of the things I've said out loud today for the first time and I'm really proud of that. I think that's done me some good. So always talk to people, have that conversation, don't be afraid to ask. You know, please don't be afraid to ask, because you can bottle it up. My mum had a fantastic saying when, shortly after my dad died, I would get really upset and she used to say better an empty house than a bad tenant, and that I want to own my gravestone.

Matt Cooper: 46:59

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 46:59

You know, it's better to have nothing there than a mashed up painting in a puddle.

Matt Cooper: 47:06

Yeah.

Phil Wilson: 47:07

You want a nice painting, you want a nice sunflower or something. Yeah, exactly.

Matt Cooper: 47:12

Well, I wish you all the best, and I offer my prayers for you as well, in the excavating and the reordering and the reimagining of the chaos.

Phil Wilson: 47:23

We start from there In the puddle. We start from there. I've got the watch out. Yeah, exactly yeah.

Matt Cooper: 47:29

And to all those listening who have been moved by this conversation, I guess really both of me and Phil would say find someone that you can trust.

Phil Wilson: 47:39

Absolutely.

Matt Cooper: 47:40

Have a conversation. If you don't feel like there's someone you can trust that is a friend, then seek out professional support. There is someone out there that you can find that you can trust and you can have a conversation with, and we wish you all the best and the prayers in that journey, wherever you are, and all that's left to do so. Thank you so much, thank you.

Phil Wilson: 48:02

It's been a real privilege. Let's have a chat.

Matt Cooper: 48:05

Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to this episode of the Imagining. I hope that you've had the opportunity to discover something new about yourself. If you went mind and you enjoyed listening, then I would be really appreciative if you subscribed on whatever channel you're listening on.